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Ultimate Woo?

Discussion in 'WordPress Plugins' started by Leo Koo, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. They aren't adding any real benefit to the woothemes world with this, just ripping off the hard working developers who are selling their plugins through the official store.

    repeat: they are just ripping off someone elses work, because legally they can under the GPL license. This is an abuse of the system.

    If you honestly can't afford the legit software, then maybe trying this out is ok, but if the plugins increase your business and profit, give the original authors some credit and appreciation by buying authentic licenses.
  2. @Rhys Wynne Is "Woo" itself a trademarked phrase? How about other WordPress companies that include "Woo" in the name? What about all of the other plugins in the WordPress world that are developed for WooCommerce? There are many WooCommerce plugins found outside of WooThemes. Free ones on WordPress and paid ones from other developers and on Code Canyon. There is also a large number of plugins that even have identical names as ones found on WooThemes. We are packaging plugins we own into a single plugin and distributing it. There is no counterfeiting involved and we aren't passing things off to be anything they are not.
  3. @UltimateWoo, the problem is that you are "packaging [COMMERCIAL] plugins we own into a single plugin and distributing it [IN THE HOPES OF PROFITING]. There is no technical counterfeiting involved, BUT what are you doing is creating disincentives for other developers to create work under the GPL license. Are you sharing your profits with them?
  4. @graypdx You don't have to like with what we're doing. We saw that WooCommerce extensions were not only pricey when managing an eCommerce store that required many of them but also cumbersome to individually install and manage. UltimateWoo was an idea to combine various features into one package and make it affordable for users. We maintain the plugin, offer updates, and support our customers. The only thing that you and anyone else who disagrees can point to as "wrong" is the fact that the code is based on other peoples' code, something the license that those people place their code under says is perfectly acceptable. It's also something that has been done many times in the open-source world. WooCommerce itself was based on Jigoshop. The decision of WooThemes to fork Jigoshop, while boosting their own business, did cause Jigoshop's business to decline. Since you're so opposed to the way we have developed a product, you must be against WooCommerce in general, no?
  5. There's nothing wrong with forking an existing GPL product :) after all, with correct attribution, any GPL product can be forked. Even Wordpress came from the fork of b2/cafelog :)

    And while WooCommerce is commercial, there's nothing wrong with using the WooCommerce name as long as it is not identical with the current plugin they are forking.
    Because of that, brands like incase and others can produce iPhone 6 cases or developers can have a Gravity Forms Visualiser or something similar :)

    However, if @UltimateWoo was producing another ecommerce plugin (like Jigoshop or Woocommerce) and calls it WowCommerce, then the trademark law comes into place :)

    Because producing something similar sounding, will confuse the customers. But producing extensions for WooCommerce and not being allowed to call it Ultimate WooCommerce? That's just the wrong understanding of the law.

    p/s: I studied trademark law :)
  6. @graypdx There's nothing wrong with forking an existing GPL product. Anyone is welcome to :) The problem with the current official WooCommerce extensions by Woothemes is that they became way too pricey for the average folk.

    The Problem with WooCommerce and why WooCommerce extensions on Codecanyon sells like hot cakes

    While Woothemes and Chris Lema preached about sustainability, ultimately it was all about making huge profits so much so that basic stuff like Coupon Reports (to gauge how well your coupon codes are doing) and others, are sold as an expensive, yearly renewal products. That isn't right, especially if we have paid a large amount for Smart Coupons :( Why couldn't it be added unto the current Smart Coupons extension instead? :)

    To be frank, running a full fledged WooCommerce store is more expensive than Opencart. And experts in ecommerce who consult with large Fortune 500 companies have said that WooCommerce isn't suitable for large ecommerce businesses. So then, why the expensive prices? :)

    And that's why CodeCanyon's business suddenly saw an explosive growth :) People started snapping up WooCommerce extensions there.

    GPL License

    The GPL license is plain and clear. That's why it's not about causing developers to not wanna work under the GPL law, but the question is how could the developers provide better support and customer service to others? Why is there a need to share profits with those that the plugin is GPL-ed from? :) Is WooCommerce going to continue paying JigoWatt for their effort in Jigoshop, which was the base for WooCommerce? :)

    Is WooCommerce going to give part of their monthly profits to Wordpress, because they are on Wordpress' platform? :)
  7. @Leo Koo Excellent points, Leo. And thanks for offering some analysis on the trademark question.
  8. I believe they do, from speaking to somebody at the WordCamp Europe.

    I believe that is different.

    If I release a plugin such as "Super Awesome Plugin for WooCommerce", then I cannot envision that being an issue. After all the plugin is designed to integrate with WooCommerce, so it makes sense for all concerned to have this in the title. The only company I can think with "Woo" in their name besides WooThemes in the WP space is Ignite WooCommerce, and they provide a lot of plugins custom built for Woo, so I can imagine WooThemes will let that slide.

    But if you're trading on the brand of somebody else (which I believe you are), then it is not you who decides who are passing things off, it's the original brand owner and - ultimately - the courts.

    Again, IANAL.
  9. I think Rhys does make a good point about using the Woo name. I'm not sure about how the law works in that regard, though I would advise you to be careful. UltimateWoo may sound to some customers like it is a WooThemes product. At the end of the day, they need to protect their brand and there is no doubt that the word WOO is associated with WooThemes within the WordPress niche.

    I wrote articles about WooThemes years ago when they forked JigoShop to WooCommerce. My issue at the time was not that they forked the plugin, but that they had hired the main developers from JigoShop to join their company after the owner of JigoShop turned down a low offer for his business. While I still do not agree with the way WooThemes handled the forking issue at the time, I do not like the fact that some developers are using this as an excuse to simply resell premium plugins at a reduced price. If this becomes more common, the WordPress community is going to suffer.

    One of the number one complaint about WooCommerce is the price of extensions. However, many of the extensions that people claim are too expensive are not developed by WooThemes, but by individual programmers. And by releasing their premium plugins at a cheaper price, you will hurt their income greatly.

    Ultimately, I don't agree with this because I do not feel that UltimateWoo is adding anything to the community as you are simply releasing products from other developers. You are also trying to restrict usage to only one website. You are not permitted to do this. Only support may be restricted.

    Perhaps Rhys should release all of the plugins you are releasing free of charge? Would you support such an action UltimateWoo?

    Also, if you want to help WooCommerce users, why not develop original WooCommerce extensions of your own instead of re-releasing plugins that are already available?
  10. Unless they had a non-compete agreement, there's nothing wrong with that. This is a part of business.

    If people prefer to purchase from WooThemes, they are more than welcome. No one is forced to purchase from us and we're not trying to put anyone out of business. Perhaps it's our American ideology of capitalism speaking, but nobody makes the decision to execute a business decision based on whether or not their competitors would like it.

    You're entitled to your opinion on what we offer. What we offer is a choice to WooCommerce users. If you don't support the method, that's your decision. While you may not find value in it, most of the people who have downloaded our plugin would probably disagree with you.

    We are limiting use? That's news to us. Any reference to the number of site you can use it on is strictly in terms of automatic updates and support.

    If Rhys wants to release our plugin for free, that's his decision. There's nothing stopping him. We understand the terms of the GPL. Anyone who wants to redistribute the GPL files has permission. The only thing that is not permissible is redistributing license keys.

    Is there a difference to you between a free "original" plugin on WordPress that does the exact same thing as a $200 plugin from WooThemes? After all, the free plugin is very likely to take business away from WooThemes and the premium plugin developer because it's cheaper. If we were to develop an original plugin called "WooCommerce Bookings" that does everything that original does and make that available in the WordPress plugin repository, would that be more acceptable?
  11. #31 Kevin Muldoon, Nov 25, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
    But your plugins are not original. As @prakash pointed out earlier, your extensions are simply re-releases of other plugins. You did not give credit for this originally.

    My point is that you could better serve WooCommerce users by developing something original than simply rebranding an existing plugin.

    If you truly believe in forking, will you be developing all of these extensions in the future and adding many more features and options that were not in the original version? Or will you be updating them by copying code from updates of the original version? If it's the latter, then your extensions are not forks.

    At the end of the day, I am not a developer. But I do want what is best for the community and I believe this business model does more harm to the WordPress community than good.
  12. Hmm, @UltimateWoo , have you attributed the extensions you are forking from? :) If yes and you're developing the fork, you would have no problems :)

    However, why don't you make your forks on CodeCanyon instead? :) If it is high quality, you'll gain a number of loyal customers before you switch over to your own platform.
  13. As somebody who went from Jigoshop > Woo, part of the reason was that there were a lot of support issues with Jigoshop that turned me to Woo. I felt sorry for Jigo at the time, but over the course of dealing with Jigo it became harder & harder to feel sorry for them.
  14. I think many customers have similar feelings about WooTheme because WooCommerce became popular with people who could not afford it. What is surprising is that there is not a bigger market for cheaper WooCommerce extensions. It appears that people would rather download the original version free or at a reduced price, instead of using an alternative.
  15. ah, actually the market for 3rd party WooCommerce extensions grew after they changed their license to yearly renewals, while increasing prices for a few as well. I started trawling CodeCanyon and anything to do with WooCommerce for quite a fair bit, and it's safe to say that CodeCanyon was one of the largest benefactor of Woothemes' decision.

    Also, there's some amazing WooCommerce extensions over on Codecanyon :)
  16. Hey @Rhys Wynne, how's jigoshop nowadays? :) I know they have changed owners and some extensions are on yearly renewals :) Are they worth it? and how do they compare to WooCommerce?

    Hey @UltimateWoo ! You might wanna consider a name change :) searching for ultimatewoo is tough on Google. Perhaps something like RazorWP or something unique? Or GatherWP etc.. :)

    What do you guys think?

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